Cultural Appropriation and Conscious Business - with Denisse Peters
The Jordan Lang Podcast: Episode 12
Welcome to Episode 12 of the Jordan Lang Podcast! We are continuing Season 2’s theme of Conscious Business with this conversation with Denisse Peters.
Denisse is an Indigenous woman from Mexico. As a Curandera (medicine woman), an activist, and a lifelong student of the universe, Denisse firmly believes that healing, compassion, safety, and dignity should be available to all. She is always looking at ways of giving back to the community, and is passionate about Indigenous rights/issues, Herbalism, History, Space/Quantum Physics, Reiki/Energy work, Tarot, TONS of books, and anything food related. Denisse hopes to remind every person just how sacred they are, and strives to help them reclaim their sovereignty, ancestry, ceremonies, and wellness.
I hope you find great value in this conversation with Denisse on Cultural Appropriation and Conscious Busines.
Can you share a bit about yourself?
Denisse: Tevote Piale. Hi everyone. My name is Denisse. I am a Mexican Indigenous immigrant. There's a lot right there alone. I am just in the wellness world, I guess. And that means like: I love food. I love nature. I love reading. I love books. I love anything that's gonna be here to help me and everyone else on their journey in this current lifetime. And then usually you can find me watching endless amounts of Netflix while I sew and bead. So I feel like that's me summed up.
Jordan: Awesome! I am so excited for this conversation, Denisse. So let's go ahead and just dive right in. This whole season is all about Conscious Business. So I would love to know…
What does Conscious Business mean to you?
Denisse: So, I started off and I actually went, and I think for the first time in a long time, looked at the dictionary. I'm like, “what's the definition of conscious?” like, what's the collective agreed upon what conscious is? And there's three definitions. So one is being aware of one's existence; being fully aware of something'; and then aware of what one is doing. I think those all really sum up, at the core, what a Conscious Business should look like. So it's something that you are doing with awareness. I think in business, a lot of the time it's really easy, and I did this in the beginning stages of my business, to just kind of go through the motions and, “What's trendy? What makes money? What's everyone gravitating towards?” and you're just like grinding and going and all that stuff. They literally teach people now to when you're building a business, you actually first research, what is selling the best on Amazon, on Etsy, and then you decide what you're selling around that.
So I would say Conscious Business is the opposite of that. And that's why it's a hard thing to really maintain and to do in this day and age, because it means it's not passive; it's something active. You have to choose that business, that energy, that product, that service. You have to it every single day. And it's also about constant evaluation, I feel, which is really important in businesses.
I've actually helped a lot of businesses with this. I do consulting where we go over - which I'm realizing now is more of like, is your business a Conscious Business, but also in the realm of culture appropriation, which we'll get into later. I really have found myself asking people more of: how do you want to feel in your business and how do you want your clients to, or customers to feel?
So that takes out a lot that takes out like, how much money can I charge? What am I doing? Is it Instagram worthy? Is it gonna make a cool picture? I have really shifted to ask people, “How do you want to feel?” because that's gonna totally affect what you do and, and what you put out.
“How you show up for your business in this conscious space, I believe, is how you show up in life.” - Denisse Peters
And that's sometimes a hard hitting one cause you call yourself out. I called myself out. When I was thinking about that, I was like, dang. It's about making these constant choices every single day and asking yourself, “How can I do better?” and, “How can I make this work for me?” cause it has to work for you first. You have to feel good about your work. You have to feel strong in it. You have to feel that this is something you're proud of and aligns with your values, because if it doesn't, how are you gonna be able to offer that to other people and feel okay with that? You know what I mean?
Jordan: I absolutely love everything that you just shared. In fact, I kind of got teary eyed when you said you have to ask yourself, “How do you want to feel?“ I think that there is a big missing piece in traditional business and how things are taught in the corporate world, right? It's run after this very masculine-energized sort of system. And while the masculine is important - strategies, structure, etc. I'm all about that! - inviting in the feminine with, “how do you want to feel?” I think that's so important, and realizing, like you had mentioned too, taking action. It's not this complacent sort of thing. You have to reevaluate constantly with how you're doing checking in with yourself, checking in with your business. So I love that you explained that so beautifully. I totally resonate with you on that.
So knowing what Conscious Business means to you, how do you embody that within your own business?
Denisse: Something that just came to mind too, when you said that, for anyone that's listening that maybe doesn't quite understand feminine and masculine, or understands it in the Instagram-presentable sense; it's not to say male and female. Everyone holds both, and there are some very unique people - two-spirited people - who beautifully embody both. It's more about the ebb and the flow. Everyone can hold it, and what you were saying about the world we live in. So for example, we've been living in the patriarchy and the masculine energy for quite a while now, and that's where we are in the world today with all of this stuff because women, and just that feminine energy, have been stifled for so long when that's exactly what this world needs. We need that ability to flow. We need the ability to feel our emotions, to express our emotions. And that feminine energy is creation.
So a lot of us are taught in traditional business models to stand in that masculine. “You better be a boss ass bitch. You better be a hustler. You better like knock it to them,” and all that stuff. And it's easy to look in the world and be like, “yeah, I do have to be hard and I can't cry,” and, “I'd rather be called a bitch and respected.” It's all this crazy toxic talk out there. But really if you are doing any type of business, that is a creative process. Whether you make something creative with your hands or not, whether you're an accountant or anything, you are still creating something for someone and for something in this world.
So being in touch with that ability to feel and to process and to allow for adjustments, because that reevaluation we’re talking about, that's (feminine energy) not really accepted in the masculine patriarchy. It's like, this is final. This is how we're doing it. This is how it's always gonna be done when obviously that's not working great.
So I just wanted to touch on that for anyone that's not sure of what the energy means. I'm totally gonna get off track with everything here, but also with plant medicine and things like that. There are a lot of things that categorize them into female and male energy, which traditionally that's how I was taught too, in my culture. Every plant holds both; every animal holds both; every person holds both. So it's just understanding of where you are in that, and so that you can recognize so that you can shift a little back and forth cuz you need both.
And then to get back on track here, it's been for me, especially over the last few years, with conscious business…I definitely was in the position of before the pandemic hit, I was very much in my stride and I was very happy with where I was. I was holding events. I was offering my services. I was just very happy with where I was business wise and then the pandemic hit and I'm sure like everyone, it was like, “what do I do?” You know you need to pivot, but what does that look like? And I did try a lot of different stuff I went from, okay, well I'm gonna do more Tarot readings cause I can do that virtually and I'm gonna do crystal sales. I wasn't even into that, and I did it and I was successful, but that reevaluation I really had to do and I had to go, okay, is this making me money? Yes. Is it making me feel how I want to feel? Mm. Not quite all the way because is this something, I feel like my purpose is wrapped into? No, it's a good business model and I see a lot of people still successful with anything that they may have pivoted towards in the pandemic. But for me it wasn't something I was making that choice every day of like, “I can't wait to do this for people and I can't wait to do this for myself and I can't wait to spread this.”
I feel when we go through very stressful times in life, when we get into those survival instincts, when the anxiety kicks in, it's very much easy to cling to things that we know are stable or can bring some sort of comfort in that. Humans, we do like some type of stability and comfort because in the beginning we didn't have any of those things. So it is, even if you don't know it, it's very nurturing and comforting to have some type of stability.
But it wasn't quite aligning, and the longer the pandemic went, I switched quite a few things. Then even recently in the last, I would say six months, I stopped posting on my main account. I was like, you know, this just isn't feeling like it's coming from the place I would like it to come from. I'm feeling like I have to perform, and I'm feeling like I have to give people information. I have to be useful to people.
So that reevaluation of me going like, oh man, but that's all I know right now. That's where I think a lot of people can get stuck if that's all, you know, how do you want to even have that conversation with yourself of, “is this still aligning?” though? And, “should I be doing something different?” I'm very multi-capable. I like to say, so I have a lot of options or things I can do. I'm very much an artist at heart. I can pick up a lot of things and learn things, but I have to ask myself: what's my goal?
So my goal is to make people feel good, to make them feel beautiful and to make them feel loved, and that love coming from themselves. So that kind of wraps up where my business then comes from. So making people feel goo. That a lot of the times comes from wearing something really beautiful, just like the feeling beautiful, or maybe it's that they're doing something for themselves. Maybe they're buying some herbal remedies. Making someone feel loved, you know, and that being self love, maybe that's empowering them with some education, with a course, with a service or something.
So if I can tie it to those things with how I want them to feel, then it aligns for me and it's part of my conscious choices I'm trying to make and how I want people to feel. Then I also have to ask myself, okay, how do I wanna feel? Cause that's great; we're very much people-pleasers, humans. We want everyone to feel good and stuff like that, but if you're not feeling that too, then it's not quite an even exchange; you're giving and giving and giving.
So I wanna feel creative. I wanna feel purposeful and I wanna feel connected. And the stuff I do definitely makes me feel all those things. So to me, it's kind of this combination of the two then that helps me always keep on track. If I feel like I'm serving a purpose for my business, I've already chosen to be a starving artist. So I might as well make sure it's something I really enjoy doing otherwise. I might as well go get a corporate job somewhere, you know?
Jordan: Yes, and I really do love that you tied in both how you want your clients and recipients of your services to feel, along with how you want to feel. It is just tying it back to checking in with yourself; checking in with the energy of your business too, to make sure that if things need to shift, you can shift. That's one of the things that I love about having our own businesses is we're in charge. So we can do that. We can make those shifts and those changes as needed. The more aligned we are with our energy and how we want to feel, the more we're gonna call in more of those people who are looking for what we have to offer them.
Denisse: And I feel like it's also double edged because it's one of those things where you were saying like we own businesses, we get to pivot how we want. For a lot of people deep down, that's the scariest part for them too. They're in full control. You're not at a 9-5 sitting as an employee and just being like, “the responsibility's not on me. I do what I'm told. I come in, I do this.”
The responsibility of your business, the energy of your business and energy of yourself is completely on you when you run your own business. So I tell a lot of my clients, like when I do my healing services, I say the hardest thing for you to work through is that your mind is your biggest enemy right now. It's telling you things that aren't true, and that's not even your brain telling you. It's maybe something someone said when you were 5 or a little comment here, or someone commented once on your IG or an ex-partner once said this one thing, those are the things. But your greatest gift also is that it comes from you. You're the only one that can change you. So how great cause we can't change external factors, but if you are the one in charge. It's gonna be hard, but it's also the best thing that could happen to you.
Jordan: Absolutely. It's that taking total accountability, personal accountability, for yourself and for your business and you're right. That is one of the hardest things for people to do. Everyone, myself included, I have to constantly be doing the shadow work and diving deeply and healing myself because things come up, even things that I thought I had worked through and it just keep coming back every now and again.
Denisse: And that's such an important thing just to even recognize. So in shamanic work, we talk about, I know there's a lot of people who say like, “life is a circle,” but for us it's a spiral. So let's say you hit something; it's triggering; there's some trauma; you work through it, right? Maybe you do some therapy. Maybe you change some lifestyle choices. Okay, cool. Well, it's a spiral. It's gonna come around again at some point, but you know what? You're better equipped this time. Maybe you understand a little bit better. Maybe you can recognize it a little sooner. Maybe you don't stress about it as obsessively as you did the first time. Maybe you make some more permanent changes that time.
“It's not about living a life that doesn't trigger you, that doesn't bring you trauma, that you react perfectly to, that you always have a smile on your face. It's about being empowered to make decisions that will benefit you and make you feel good so that you can enjoy this life here, cause you only have one conscious life here and what a shame to waste it on letting the world make you feel bad about yourself.” - Denisse Peters
Jordan: Beautiful. Absolutely. I love that. So to shift gears just slightly, this is still under Conscious Business…
I would love to talk to you about Cultural Appropriation. Could you share with us what it is and how it causes harm?
Denisse: Absolutely. So the definition roughly I like to give is: a dominant culture profiting off of a nondominant culture. That's kind of the basis of cultural appropriation. What does that look like? I feel like this is where it gets a little messy sometimes because we know as a society, what that looks like. There's no hiding it. There's no not knowing. There's no non-education out there. We know. For example, I've been seeing lately a lot of big fashion labels getting sued for using prints and using styles that are directly stolen from tribes and some of my own and profiting off of them. Because what they do is they go to these little towns in Mexico or other places or in Arizona and they see some of the local artwork. They see the traditional wear we have, maybe the prints, then they go back and they - I've seen literal copies sold for like, thousands of dollars. It's crazy - and they make all this money off of it. That would be a dominant culture, cause these are usually white-owned businesses profiting off of non-dominant. And they are winning their cases; these tribes and these people, which is amazing.
I can find examples in all areas of life. A lot of chefs and cooking shows with really famous people. I see a lot of diversity now, which is amazing, but even six years ago that wasn't the case. It's a lot of white dominant chefs and cooking shows and all of this stuff, and you see them making these ethnic dishes and there's no talk about where it comes from. No talk about where they learned it. There is no talk about traditionally how you would make it. They kind of whitewash it a bit and present it and put it in a cookbook, and everyone's like, “oh my God, this is so great.” And meanwhile, that poor little grandma who showed them in that little town over there is still making maybe $2 a day without getting anything back from that chef who went and learnt from them and then took that back.
So cultural appropriation is, let's talk about why it's an issue. I feel like that's where the disconnect comes. I feel like if it's never happened to you, it's hard to understand why it's so hurtful. It's hard to understand. Like, “okay we're in this modern day and age, like everyone just kumbaya, get along. We're all the same people.”
“When everyone in this world is given the same opportunities, is treated the same - same access to water, same access to food, same access to education, healthcare; isn't being a victim of predatory behavior, of police brutality, of government erasure - then we can talk. But those things aren't happening and that's a very, very real reality.” - Denisse Peters
So when you have these groups who are already quite struggling, struggling to even meet the same living standards that a lot of Caucasian people are privileged to, then it does further harm and it knocks it down further. So it's directly impacting their ability to make money, and that's a huge one. It's not that it's just about the money; that money means though that they can help their families. They can help their communities. It goes back into the communities. There's education.
I just saw an amazing campaign. I got an email - b.YELLOWTAIL + NWI - are doing these t-shirts that uh, “Rez Girls Can Do Anything.” And when you buy a t-shirt, it helps put that money back into giving opportunities to these young women who grow up on Rez’s who think like, “I'm never gonna get outta here. I'm never gonna get an education. I'm never gonna be what I want to be,” right? And it's giving that chance to them. So it directly impacts these communities and these peoples, and it really is about erasure as well.
So for example, if we shift topic here and go into quite a prevalent thing that still happens. There is a lot of Caucasian people who are self proclaimed, shamans, medicine women, whatever they wanna call themselves. I believe everyone can carry healing abilities, qualities. Absolutely. I'm asking you, what is your obsession with needing that title? Because in my culture and in the Indigenous ways, we don't name ourselves, I don't walk around calling myself Shaman or a Medicine Woman or something. That is something your village would call you after you’re 50, 60, 70. They know who to go to when they need help; when their kid is sick; when they're not feeling well; they need spiritual counsel. It's not something that we name ourselves.
So it's simple things like that that you can recognize, “oh, this person isn't quite conscious in the choices they're making.” If that simple aspect of it, they can't seem to detach their ego from. Then on top of that, they're benefiting from it. They will go on ayahuasca retreats; they'll go on a sweat lodge; they'll go to an ashram in India. They'll go to all these things. They'll take what they like. They will whitewash it down a bit. They'll repackage it and sell it.
”So my biggest thing is if you are profiting off of another culture and there's no give back, you don't know the history, you don't know the people, you're not donating regularly, you're not doing volunteer work, you're not championing their causes…then ask yourself truly, what is your conscious relationship to that?" - Denisse Peters
And is this more about profiting and ego? Yourself is feeling really cool and spiritual and stuff. Yet those people are still suffering.
With Indigenous Spirituality, I'm really glad a lot of people are taking the time to learn about our history; to learn about our ways and they ask, “can I come to a pow wow?” Like absolutely, and like all these things; however, it's the people who then want to make money from that. They want to teach other people. Just because I’m Indigenous doesn't mean I get to teach everyone's stuff. There are teachings that like, when I am told by an elder, I can teach them. I can teach. And maybe I never get to and that's fine. But if I don't see them posting; if they're not really active on social media posting about missing & murdered; I don't see them at marches; I don't see them volunteering; I don't see them in any type of connection; They don't have elders; They don't have community; They don't know even the land that they're are on and who it belongs to. That's a lot of red flags to me of why is this so important to you then? Does that make sense?
Jordan: Absolutely, and there's so much to unpack with all of that. So if you are listening, I highly recommend that you do your research and that you dive deeply into everything that Denise is sharing. Don't go to an indigenous person, demanding answers. You need to do your own research.
Denisse: And that's not to say like we're not friendly!
Jordan: It's just that expectation. I think that a lot of white people have of like, “You have the information I want. So tell me all about it,” instead of like, Google is free. You can do searches. You can find out whose whose land you're on. There are resources available for white people outside of just going to an indigenous person saying, “Hey, tell me all about this.” You know?
Denisse: And a lot of these these topics and teachings and things are stuff that even us, it, it takes our whole lifetime to learn. So then you wanna DM me and ask me to give you the cliff notes of my life in one paragraph, it doesn't work like that. To expand on that, it's not just white people. Everyone is capable of appropriation and everyone is capable of racism. And I do get people that are Indigenous or something else, and they're going, “I see the path you are on. How did you get there? I would love to,” my heart breaks. I would love to help. I love helping people reconnect. I believe the strongest medicine you'll ever learn in your life is from your own ancestry because that's what runs in your veins.
However, I learned a while ago, I cannot be the conduit for that for people. I have spent - I'm turning 34 this year -I spent my whole life, figuring out who I am, where I come from; researching, reading, finding elders, going into community, traveling back home, talking to my great-great-great uncle. And even to me, I look at other people who are even more connected to than I am, and I go, dang, like, that must be nice. But I'm not gonna DM them, and be like, “How'd you do that?” Like, there is no right answer. If this is important to you, it's your whole life's work.
And money, can't be your motivation. If money is your motivation, forget everyone else. That should be a red flag to you. That should be that like, “oh, this isn't maybe something that is aligned for me.” I would tell people, don't think of it as you're being told or telling yourself that opportunity to make money isn't there for me. I can't do it because I'm not this or I'm not that, or whatever it is. Give yourself that opportunity to go. “Hmm. Where could my gifts really come in the best? What is my own medicine? What am I really good at? How could I do that so that I feel really good with what I'm doing, and people feel really good with what I'm doing?” and that will shift everything.
If you take the focus off of money and you really ask your soul, does this feel good? Would I feel okay if someone asked me, where did you learn this? Who gave you permission? Even for me, when I apply to Indigenous markets, all the applications, it goes: What tribe are you? Who taught you? Where did you learn this? What kind of materials did you use?
I think everyone else can ask themselves some questions, and I think that's great because it gives such an opportunity for self-reflection for yourself too.
Jordan: Absolutely, and I love that you're sharing all of this with us! I know, know you and I - talking about ancestry - I know I had messaged you this, I think it was sometime last year. And I was like, how do I? And you're like, “You gotta dig into your own ancestry. You gotta figure it out.” And I love that you pushed me towards like, do your own research, Jordan. I was able to find out some really cool stuff and do a lot of generational healing and everything else. That's where it is taking that personal responsibility in your own life and in the life of your business, and trying to do the least amount of harm possible.
I think, like you said, asking yourself those questions, and you getting asked, “What tribe are you from? Where did you learn this? What materials did you use?” I think a lot of times people, speaking for myself as a white woman, I used to get very triggered by that with like anybody asking me anything, I'd be like, why? Like, why does it matter?
If people were like, “Oh, white women are, are dangerous.” I'm like, “I'm not a danger!” to where I had to like really self reflect and be like, “Why are they saying this? Why am I getting triggered by this? What do I need to dismantle within myself and raise that conscious awareness of the harm that I am doing?” Even with cultural appropriation and everything else, I had to be really careful as I was diving into the spiritual world of things, to not just kind of pick and choose different things that felt good. That's where the ancestry tied in with like, what did my ancestors practice? What were their rituals? What were their rituals? And so I really think it is that self-reflection and taking personal responsibility piece. That's just so important.
Denisse: Yeah. And to add on that, I know it's very triggering for a lot of people to be told, “No.” I very much understand that. However, for a lot of white people, historically, you're not used to being told “no.” You're used to extracting. You're used to a lot of things where you're never told no. So in a modern day and age, if you're asking somebody, “Hey, can I wear a headdress?” And someone says, no. “Why? Why not? Explain to me! How come? Why is it? Who is it hurting?” all that. It's like all these questions when I truly believe, there doesn't need to be all that backstory and explanation.
That also reminds me, everyone will meet in their lifetime, someone from a culture who says, “yes.” You’ll meet a Black person who says, “Sure, you can say the N-word.” You will meet an Indigenous person who says, “Sure, you can make and sell beadwork.” You will meet like someone from every culture. What we have to ask ourselves is: but what is the general consensus and feelings from this culture?
I feel like some people have a good understanding. If you are not Black, you don't say the N-word. It's very simple, so apply that same logic and respect to other cultures as well. I think you have to see the flip side of that. People in general, and we can apply this to anything in life, don't focus on the no’s. Don't focus on the negatives, focus on the, “Okay, cool. So let me look into my stuff.”
In a lot of creation stories and in the Medicine Wheel, we have whatever colors there are, cause each medicine wheel is different colors. There is still this general theme that Creator created these different colors of people. With that came specific medicines, directions, herbs, everything, right? So when you are diving into your own ancestry, your own ways and practices, you're fulfilling your part of that Medicine Wheel. Why are you trying to go over here and belong here? It's not even about belonging, but you are meant to carry your own beautiful…So if everyone practiced, let's say Indigenous spirituality, well, where are all the other great ones?
I love everyone's cultures and their practices and their beliefs, and they all hold a medicine that this world needs. We cannot have just one, you know? And I think it's just really important to see it, that way that you have this sacred role to play, fulfill it. And how you bring what you're supposed to bring into this world.
“Don't try and be something else. You were born the way you were to bring something beautiful into this world.” - Denisse Peters
Jordan: Absolutely. So I know that you are obviously very passionate about this work and I love how you advocate for your people and for those who have been harmed by cultural appropriation and all of the things…
What are some of the biggest struggles that you personally face as an advocate?
Denisse: Oh, quite a lot to be honest. My advocacy journey has been…it's been…it's been long, and I would be lying if I said it was constant. I'm not constantly in the activist mindset because it is the most draining thing you will ever do in your life. And it's very hard. I was reflecting on this earlier, thinking about, “okay, what kind of barriers or negativity have I experienced from this?” And I feel like anything and everything. Obviously, I don't always get welcomed into white spaces because they're not comfortable maybe with discussing these things, because then that means that their reality, maybe isn't reality; that there's more happening, and that would mean that you need to maybe make different choices to help change this world.
But honestly, I've received a lot of hard times from everybody. It's not just white people. There is something called lateral violence. If you don't know what lateral violence is, it is when, from your own people, you are receiving hate, criticism, all of those things. I would post things about how I was feeling, and I feel like it goes without saying: I don't represent all native people. I just don't. No one will have your lived experiences. No one will have your history. No one will have what your day to day looks like. So if things have been tougher for me, I personally know many people that are missing, murdered or are impacted by it. Somebody else doesn't have that experience, and then they judge for how much I advocate or ask people to do some better work.
It's this disconnect because they, even if they're Native, maybe they haven't experienced that. I've had some Indigenous people comment on my stuff going, “Well, we shouldn't be telling people what to do.” Cause when it came to the Residential Schools, I was posting about it and going, “Please don't ask for any emotional labor from Indigenous People right now. Don't ask them, ‘well what's going on? Can you explain this to me?’” And all this stuff, I'm like, “There is so much trauma happening. Just please respect our space right now. If you wanna learn more, (like you said), there's Google. Go to your local Friendship Center. There's so many resources.” And I had some people that got upset that I was saying that. That to me kind of fit in with the, there's always gonna be a few that say it's okay or that we should just kumbaya and we should just include everybody and everything and all get along. I'm saying that overall this is how a lot of us are feeling and it's okay to give us some space. When Black Lives Matter was going on, no one for the most part would think about going into - whether it's someone you kind of knew or a stranger, you know - a Black person's DMs and going, “Oh, you must be feeling really scared right now.” And like, “Wow, like, can you explain what's going on? Is it always this bad?” and all this stuff. Like that's common sense, you know?
So I've lost job opportunities. I had some pretty big deals. I had a very expensive jewelry brand actually who wanted to work with me. An incident happened where one of their already existing affiliates - which they didn't wanna use that word cause it meant that they actually had responsibility tied to this person; that's what they were; they were making money off of selling their product for them - they had engaged in liking posts that were extremely homophobic, anti-LGBTQ. Another person, who was a white woman, appropriating Indigenous stuff, like she was naked with her boobs out with sage and stuff like that. It was actually very crazy and I brought it up to them, and I said I'd like to know how they’re dealing with this before we even talk about me coming on. They gaslit the crap out of me and said that basically I'm the one with the problem, and everyone else is choosing to move forward in light and love. And I said, “Cool, I'm out,” and I lost that opportunity.
I don't always get invited to big events because they are mostly Caucasian-run in the wellness industry. So yeah, it's tough. It's really tough, but I feel like the right thing isn't the easy thing, unfortunately.
So I take breaks a lot. I wanna say this to anyone listening who is struggling, whether you're colored or not, cause you can still champion for causes you're not a part of: it is exhausting. I understand that soul exhausting experience. A lot of white people are scared to express, and they've told me in confidence, “I don't know how to do this. Like I don't even know how you do it. I'm exhausted. I'm scared I'm gonna say the wrong thing. Do the wrong thing. That I'm not allowed to even champion for this.” And I always say like, “Be soft on yourself. This isn’t easy work. It's lifetime work. And if you need breaks, take breaks. If you need to delete social media, delete it if you need to.” Just because you're not currently advocating doesn't mean you're a crappy person; it means you're tending to your soul, filling your tank. So when you're ready you can go back for a bit and then come back.
So it is tough work, no matter what race you are, culture you are, what you're trying to stand for. So really create that space for yourself to allow yourself to take some breaks, because it can be soul crushing at times, you know?
Jordan: Yeah, absolutely. Sending you so much love as you go through this. Just one last thing I would love to chat about,=; you have mentioned some things that I feel would apply here, but…
Do you have anything specifically that white allies in particular can do to be a support?
Denisse: Yeah, absolutely. I just have my notes in front of me cause I know I get very like…I'm passionate. So I'll just talk for hours. There's two things in relation to that I'd love to bring up.
So, with a business specifically - If you're wanting your business to be conscious, to be ethical, to not hurt anyone, any culture, or any race, I would ask yourself to ask yourself these questions:
WHY: Why do you offer this? Why is it important and integral to your business?
WHAT: What is it that you're offering? And that means you should be able to tell me the history on that, where it comes from, how it's made, how you learn all of that stuff.
HOW: How do you practice it? How do you offer it to yourself? What is your connection to it? So making sure again, that it's in right relationship, cause it's something that you do all day, all the time.
WHERE: Where is it from? Where was it taken from? Where is the original carriers of this practices of it?
WHO: Who does this belong to and who is impacted by this?
Then specifically some things that white allies can do - It's gonna seem really silly, but it's really important:
Pay educators, hire out, hire guest speakers.
A lot of the times when people are really, like myself, I'm really excited to talk about these things. I don't need a payment. Like it's fine. But if you're asking someone because it's part of a course you're selling for 600 bucks, it's part of something that you're somehow getting kickback from, it's something that has the ability to help other people - pay them, even if it's five bucks for coffee. I really believe in energy exchange, and keeping that so that it's kind of that exchange between cultures and races and people it's not just extracting.
Ask yourself, are you extracting? Or is this something that you're trying to at least somehow ask them what they would like?
When I go to elders or ceremonies, every elder is different. I have to ask, “what would you like? Is it just tobacco? Is it tobacco and cloth? Is it food? What is it?” And that's just like a nice respect thing to do.
And then, I see this a lot. I see people who are doing, let's say courses on like Shiva Shakti, let's say in yoga practices and stuff. I'm not saying you can't teach that as a white person, but what if you paid somebody from that lineage, from that culture? Either you paid them for the education they gave you behind the scenes, or you paid them to come and guest and to actually talk about that or co-facilitate with you. Now you are putting money back into the community and culture you learnt from; you're also giving that person the platform, and then you're helping the people who are learning to be open to diversity and things as well as that. So it's really about giving opportunities to people who don't necessarily get them.
So my biggest advice would be to…we live in a money world. We got bills. We got stuff, you know? Sometimes a nice little acknowledgement isn't enough. So when you pay, for example with Indigenous people, when you buy something from me, I am able to put that back into my community. Then that helps Indigenous women and children and men in general, and then our whole community flourishes. It's imagining what you could do beyond just recognition for something. How can you help them in their community, and things like that? So that's something, if that makes sense in my rambling there.
Jordan: No, absolutely. Such beautiful, self reflective prompts, as well as real acts that we can begin taking to help be support. Thank you so much, Denisse, for your time and for sharing, and for this beautiful conversation!
Where can listeners connect with you and check out the items that you’re creating and all of that?
Denisse: I feel like, wow, this went by super quick! My main Instagram account, I had on Facebook too for a long time, is @mexicamedicine and I'm not active on there anymore. That's me taking my break. But all of my posts are still there. I kept it. So if you wanna learn about ceremonies and plant medicine, Indigenous causes, little rituals for yourself, you can go scroll through there. I have lots of stuff for everybody.
Then my shop page is @mexicamedicineshop, and you can see all of the stuff that I make and what all this mess is for. I would love to offer as well, to all of your podcast listeners and YouTubers, 20% off any custom work. So if you're not familiar with my work, I do crystal, healing jewelry. I do beaded jewelry. I do ribbon skirts. I do plant medicine. So if there's anything you're working towards or energy you're trying to call in, you can send me a DM on my shop page for 20% off, and my website is mexicamedicine.square.site
Jordan: Awesome, and I'll make sure to link to all of that in the show notes and on the blog post. So make sure that you check that out! Thanks again so much Denisse so grateful for you and for this conversation.
Denisse: No worries, and the one thing I would love to leave everybody with. If this felt like a lot of information to take in, cause it usually is, is remember. Because we all have a deep knowing that you just need to remember what your purpose and gift is here. Everything else you would do in your life will follow that and align with that. If you can remember that, remember you were born the time you were, the place you were, the skin you're in, whatever you choose to identify, because has that as medicine to bring into the world and just stay true to that. And you'll never feel like you've gone astray.
Jordan: Beautiful. Thank you.
Denisse: You’re welcome.
To wrap things up…
Another big THANK YOU to Denisse for this conversation! If you enjoyed this episode, I would love to hear from you! You can email me or send me a message on Instagram. Sending you lots of love!
jordan lang xo
Connect with Denisse
Did you find value in Denisse’s message today? I encourage you to send her a financial payment as a THANK YOU for her time and energy in sharing with us:
